In conversation with Dulux Decorator Centre

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Hi, I'm Daniel Arnold.

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And today I'm joined by Duncan Lochhead
from Dulux Decorator Centre

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to talk to us about the company's
sustainability ambitions,

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our partnership and the success
of our paint can recycling scheme.

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This recently passed the 1 million
cans recycled milestone.

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The key part of Ecological Transformation,
as the name suggests, is transforming

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our patterns of consumption
and closing the loop on resources

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by partnering with the like minded
companies like Dulux Decorator Centre.

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We're doing just that by recycling used
paint cans.

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This initiative recently reached
the milestone of 1 million cans recycled,

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saving significant amounts of carbon
emissions and preserving virgin resources.

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Listen to my conversation with Duncan to find
out more about the value of this partnership.

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Hi Duncan, hi Dan,
thanks very much

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Good to good to be with you today.

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Perhaps it's a good idea

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for me to introduce our business
and what we do

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and I'm actually part of the
Dulux Decorator Centre

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which is a specific bit of 
Dulux AkzoNobel

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I guess quite a lot of people
will not be that familiar

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with the name
AkzoNobel, 

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AkzoNobel is a big global manufacturer
of paints and coatings

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in the UK you might know brands well,
hopefully, definitely Dulux,

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but there are other brands

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in the portfolio,
things like Hammerite, Cuprinol

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Polycell and AkzoNobel

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make paint and distribute to consumers.

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So for example,
you know, that's us going down to

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B&Q, Homebase and buying
our Dulux for home.

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But then we also supply the trade market.

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So that's, decorators and painting
contractors of roughly equal sizes

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those two markets
and through to the trade up

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the biggest distribution
point is that you know

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is the Dulux Decorator Centre unsurprisingly
and there are around about 245

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stores in our network across the country.

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Yeah.

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Well we collect from 137 of those
on a weekly basis.

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Yeah.

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So we do a little bit of, what's the right word

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bringing it all together,

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so you consolidate the

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empty tins the empty metal
and plastic tins

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at your decorating centres. We
then on a national fleet, collect them

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on a weekly, fortnightly, monthly basis
depending on obviously the requirement,

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the frequency, consolidate them,
then at our regional

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transfer stations for them
being sent for onward recycling.

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So depending on whether they're metal
or plastic determines

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then the final recycling,
facility we then send that to.

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And I'm just thinking about it from
this kind of back end I suppose, isn't it.

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But the front end
from our customers perspective and

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actually if we go one

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step back, if you think about
the big two waste challenges

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we have in our market,
one is empty cans and the other is

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cans that have some paint left in

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half filled cans hiding in people's

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garages and cupboards under the stairs.

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But from an empty cans perspective,

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this is a big you know, it's
a massive challenge for us as a market.

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It's something the scary stat
is that something like

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100 million empty paint cans

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go to waste in the UK every year.

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That's not just us. That's that's.

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The market. That's the whole market.

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Yeah.

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So finding,

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that's
why this service is, is so important,

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finding a way to make it easy
for customers

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to return cans and feel kind of reassured

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that they are going to be recycled
and not end up in landfill.

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It's what
we're doing here, what we're trying to do

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and what we've been
trying to do for the last

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over ten years.

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It's I guess
it's been a bit of a struggle for us.

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You know,
the adoption of the can recycling,

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which is a free of charge service that
we offer to customers, has been slower.

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The good news is it picked up at a faster
rate.

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Last year it increased at a faster rate
than than previous years.

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So, you know, hopefully
the message is finally sinking in.

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But that's what we're trying to do.

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We're trying to make it really easy
for customers to to either

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return empty cans to the stores

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or we make it really easy

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because half of what we what we supply,
we deliver to sites,

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to construction sites or sites
that people are working on.

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And then we'll pick up whilst we deliver

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pick up empty cans from from sites.

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All our customers have to do
is bag them up.

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Make them available to you.

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Do a little bit of paperwork,
and return them.

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Yeah. So that's what we're trying to do.

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Yeah. Excellent.

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And obviously today we're celebrating
quite the landmark with the service

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passing at the end of last year,
a million cans that have been recycled

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through the scheme.

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And it just goes to show really
obviously

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how both the Dulux, AkzoNobel
and the Veolia goals

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really align with this

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to obviously drive what we what we like to
consider is Ecological Transformation

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and yeah it's a roaring success

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really obviously as you rightly say, it's
picking up, it's getting more engagement

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and hopefully as a result,
we can reach more clients, more people.

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And obviously then direct more material down
the scheme for future

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recycling really.

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The 1 million cans was
a great milestone and

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actually it's quite nice because

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we keep a track of all of the cans
that return that are returned

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we were able to to know
that the one millionth

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can came back to

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Dulux Decorator Centre at Newtown Road

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in Birmingham in July last year

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and we know who the customer was

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who returned it.

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But yeah, so it was a great landmark
and that's great.

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But there are still a lot of

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a lot of empty cans
that we're not capturing through

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the empty can recycling scheme that we

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you know, that we are desperately
trying to change habits.

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It's quite it's kind of habitual industry
decorators.

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The age profile of decorators is average
age is around about 52.

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So it's quite an old

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profession
which is an issue because you know,

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they're going to retire and yeah, people
are going to run out of decorators but

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the older ones

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are ingrained in what they do
and their habits.

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Can be set in their ways a little bit
perhaps.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And getting them to think differently

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about their empty cans
rather than just slinging in the

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skip on the site,

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but actually have them returned
so we can ensure

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that they are recycled properly
with your help and, you know,

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that's that's really hard,
but that's what we're aiming for.

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Excellent.

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As well as recycling empty paint tins

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then Duncan, what are you doing to assist
with your clients that are looking to

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sustainably dispose of their partially
or full paint tins?

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Yeah.

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That second big waste challenge
that we have

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as an industry, by the way,
but it's a big one as well, 

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should I ask you a question, put you on the spot
here actually because, you can try.

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You might remember this, you might not.

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But what is the average

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number of half filled paint tins
that people have in their garage, in some

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of their sheds and cubpoards
under the stairs

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I wouldn't even like to guess
because I know I will be so far out.

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I'm sure you must have heard this before.

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I probably have, because
go on have a guess

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eight.

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Eight, eight is a good guess,
but very wrong.

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Oh, right. The right answer

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having done research as an 
industry on this

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is 17. Wow.
If you think about all those

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little tester pots and everything, it
all mounts up, doesn't it?

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And so yeah,
if they kind of rest in people's

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sheds and garages gathering dust, then
eventually they have to be dealt with.

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And, and actually
we've worked out that if you

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if you add it all up together,

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it's, it's a waste paint lake of 40

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to 50 million litres of paint
a year that goes to waste.

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And the sad thing about that is that

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lots of that waste paint

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is in reasonably good condition and can be
and can be used.

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And, and so yeah, over 10% of what we

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as an organisation make and sell

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never makes it onto the wall, just,

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just goes straight into, into waste,
which is criminal.

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All that resource
used to make it the energy and

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raw materials.

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So yeah, so

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there are a number of things
that we need to address that issue too.

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The good news is

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some things are happening
and a good one to mention is

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an organisation

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we've sponsored now for 30 years
they're called

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Community Repaint and they,

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they have a network of 60
or 70 projects around the country.

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They take in old waste paint and

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kind of sort through it
and then provide it, sell it on

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at a very low cost to people in need
or to community projects.

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And that's great.

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So we're kind of diverting,
you know, good paint,

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usable paint away from the waste stream
completely.

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Yeah. Ready for reuse,
which is obviously a great way in which

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to utilise that material. Yeah. Perfect.

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But that is only scratching the surface
and there's loads more that

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we need to do
to deal with that great big issue

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you know, including,

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you know, contractors
painting contractors who have great

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big store cupboard, store
areas, store rooms filled with,

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old scary,

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you know, messy paint

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that's built up over ten, 20 years.

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And, you know, although we
have completely nailed it yet.

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We are, of course, working on something
with you

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to try and find a way to provide a service
to customers, to deal with that.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, we have obviously
the infrastructure to be able to to treat

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bulk liquid paint as long as it obviously
conforms to the certain criteria.

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Obviously with water based, solvent based.

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So there's a number of different options

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we can provide through our UK
infrastructure.

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And obviously,
as you rightly say, we're trying a service

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now and in a particular region
to see how we're getting on, we've had

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relatively good engagement
towards the back end of last year

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and hopefully that will
then build this year.

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Fingers crossed.

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How does the scheme fit into Dulux's
wider sustainability strategy?

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Well, the the strategy, particular
for Dulux Decorator Centre

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centres around
three, three key pillars really.

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So it's

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sustainable products

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and packaging is part of that,
sustainable services

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and sustainability
within our own organisation.

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The kind of operational sustainability
I suppose.

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So just to, to kind of bring that to life.

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So the types of things that we are

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that we are looking at and working on.

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So if we think about sustainable products,
there's all sorts of,

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you know, technological developments.

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But probably the cool
big thing at the moment

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is, is a stream of activity

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that's centred on very,

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very low carbon technology.

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So these are paints that are 99.9%

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solvent free, so solvent
just to kind of paint the picture

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a bit, solvents have been used
by the paint industry for

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hundreds of years.

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They help make paint flow out
and give you a nice smooth finish.

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For those of us who are older like me,

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you remember old,

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very high
solvent paints, very smelly, very potent

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using solvents like

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white spirit, which tend to come
from the petrochemical industry.

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So they're very high carbon

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so that's bad.

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So now we have

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new resin technology,
which helps make more

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and more of the paints that we manufacture
and sell be entirely water based,

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which obviously completely changes
the carbon profile.

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So that's a
really good big change

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at the moment

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just from a sustainable services
perspective obviously all that we do

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helping customers deal with
waste is a big factor.

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But there are also things
that we're doing to help

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customers model

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the paints they use
and the carbon impact over short,

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medium and long term period
and the lifecycle modelling tools.

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And key to that is carbon data.

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So carbon data is a key bit
that we've been working on too.

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And then when I think about

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sustainability within our organisation
as a whole, I mean there's loads of things

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that you're probably doing too

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just as we are, theres

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you know, the trialing
of electric vehicles for deliveries.

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There's sustainability
training for all of our people

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to make sure that it's
kind of part of business as usual.

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That's how we,

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how we deal with the carbon in buildings,

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the operational carbon
and the carbon embedded in our buildings

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and loads of different streams of activity
on that front.

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Does that answer your question? Yeah.

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really goes to show that the
aims and ambitions

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of Dulux really dovetail
with Veolia's own.

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And I think that's what makes such
a great partnership really.

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How crucial are partnerships such as the one

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between Dulux and Veolia in delivering
these sustainable initiatives?

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Well,
they are vital, absolutely vital for us.

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When we map

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you know, our

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our footprint.

00:16:02:09 - 00:16:06:23
As an organisation,
when we look upstream

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and when we look downstream, it's
the same for most organisations, isn't it?

00:16:10:15 - 00:16:11:22
That's where the big impacts are

00:16:11:22 - 00:16:15:22
You know, operational,
you know, within our own operations

00:16:15:23 - 00:16:17:15
is only between 2 and 5%.

00:16:17:15 - 00:16:22:13
So all the stuff upstream
and all our suppliers, all the,

00:16:23:11 - 00:16:27:04
you know, help and more materials
and innovation

00:16:27:05 - 00:16:31:09
that we get from suppliers upstream
and equally downstream.

00:16:31:09 - 00:16:36:11
You know, thinking about waste and Veolia,

00:16:36:11 - 00:16:39:20
we can't hit our overall ambition.

00:16:40:08 - 00:16:42:19
By the way, our big ambition is to halve

00:16:43:19 - 00:16:46:17
carbon emissions by 2030

00:16:46:21 - 00:16:51:11
across the full value chain upstream,
downstream and in the middle.

00:16:53:02 - 00:16:55:00
So we can't achieve that

00:16:55:00 - 00:16:58:20
without the help, assistance
and collaboration

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:04:06
of all the people that we work with
across across the whole value chain

00:17:05:02 - 00:17:08:17
yeah, so when I think about
when I think about Veolia,

00:17:09:11 - 00:17:12:16
you know, you have for us,
you have a really crucial role

00:17:13:10 - 00:17:15:20
in helping us,

00:17:16:13 - 00:17:19:05
you know, radically
improve the waste profile

00:17:19:05 - 00:17:22:22
of our industry as a whole.

00:17:22:22 - 00:17:26:04
So we've really, you know,
we really need your help.

00:17:26:21 - 00:17:30:22
You know, we really need you to be able
to provide great, great service,

00:17:30:22 - 00:17:34:04
but also be doing all the things
behind the scene to make that

00:17:34:16 - 00:17:37:18
that service,
you know, lower and lower carbon

00:17:38:06 - 00:17:40:21
as we progress
through the years towards 2030.

00:17:41:03 - 00:17:42:06
Yeah. Well is it true partnership

00:17:42:06 - 00:17:45:04
really because obviously
at the same time we need your assistance

00:17:45:04 - 00:17:48:20
when it comes to perhaps collecting
from your clients directly in some cases

00:17:49:02 - 00:17:50:06
with providing us obviously with
the right

00:17:50:06 - 00:17:52:20
information to allow us to be able
to undertake that successfully.

00:17:53:09 - 00:17:56:17
So yeah,
it really is a hand-in-glove approach

00:17:56:18 - 00:18:00:00
with these sorts of initiatives
and to make it a success certainly.

00:18:00:11 - 00:18:03:23
You know, we're not experts
at dealing with waste.

00:18:03:23 - 00:18:05:14
You're experts at dealing with waste.

00:18:05:14 - 00:18:09:01
So, it's expertise we need, isn't it?

00:18:09:05 - 00:18:11:02
Absolutely.

00:18:11:02 - 00:18:13:22
A lot of brands now are coming under fire
for so-called greenwashing.

00:18:14:14 - 00:18:17:14
How do you ensure that your sustainability
projects aren't mistaken

00:18:17:15 - 00:18:18:13
for greenwashing?

00:18:18:13 - 00:18:20:22
And are taken seriously as
industry leading initiatives.

00:18:21:21 - 00:18:22:07
Yeah.

00:18:22:07 - 00:18:26:05
Greenwashing
is a term that our legal department

00:18:26:05 - 00:18:30:24
love to talk about on a frequent basis
with us and

00:18:30:24 - 00:18:33:00
it's good and right to

00:18:35:09 - 00:18:38:00
to think about
and to address the greenwashing issue.

00:18:38:07 - 00:18:43:15
I suppose my initial response is data.

00:18:44:04 - 00:18:47:00
It's it's data and science

00:18:48:13 - 00:18:51:10
that gives us,
you know, robust platforms

00:18:51:10 - 00:18:52:08
so, for example,

00:18:52:08 - 00:18:54:22
you know, we we've signed up to

00:18:56:07 - 00:18:58:18
science based targets as an organisation

00:18:58:23 - 00:19:02:10
and that means that our top line

00:19:02:10 - 00:19:08:00
goals are properly robust
and have been tested in effect

00:19:08:15 - 00:19:12:01
through a third party.

00:19:12:01 - 00:19:14:23
But every element of the business that

00:19:16:06 - 00:19:19:12
on which we make a claim, it's a bit
like we were talking earlier on

00:19:19:12 - 00:19:24:06
about the empty can recycling,
being able to track all of the movements

00:19:24:07 - 00:19:27:15
and to track what happens to the cans,
you know, with your help

00:19:28:07 - 00:19:31:06
and you know,
that means that we can do things

00:19:31:06 - 00:19:35:08
like make a nice story about the one
millionth can that was recycled.

00:19:35:18 - 00:19:38:20
So we need the data
and we need the science behind it.

00:19:40:08 - 00:19:42:01
But we do need to

00:19:42:01 - 00:19:48:06
we have to have a balance on that because,
there's a new term, right?

00:19:48:07 - 00:19:50:23
There's a new term. Go on. Greenhushing.

00:19:51:12 - 00:19:53:21
Greenhushing, I can't say I have 
but it sounds interesting.

00:19:53:21 - 00:19:54:05
Okay.

00:19:54:05 - 00:19:56:16
Greenhushing
can mean a number of different things, but

00:19:57:04 - 00:19:59:19
it can mean that,

00:19:59:19 - 00:20:02:10
you know, companies for fear of being

00:20:02:10 - 00:20:06:17
accused of greenwashing,
say nothing, you know, they hide.

00:20:06:17 - 00:20:10:08
And the
they put very little in their annual reports

00:20:10:21 - 00:20:12:22
because there's a tension, isn't there?

00:20:13:02 - 00:20:17:15
A tension between between what you claim
and what you can justify?

00:20:17:17 - 00:20:19:02
Of course. Yeah.

00:20:19:18 - 00:20:21:19
So that is bad.

00:20:21:19 - 00:20:24:12
So we have to try and hit the sweet spot
in the middle

00:20:26:00 - 00:20:29:17
and, and not be too scared of
doing any communication

00:20:29:17 - 00:20:34:15
with a, you know, for our customers
or for the market as a whole.

00:20:34:15 - 00:20:35:23
So yeah, greenwashing

00:20:35:23 - 00:20:40:00
we need to we need to address it
and we need to have robust data,

00:20:40:09 - 00:20:43:05
but we need to watch out
for not saying anything.

00:20:43:06 - 00:20:44:15
Yeah, I think obviously what you say

00:20:44:15 - 00:20:47:02
with data is bang on really
I mean it's tangible isn't it.

00:20:47:11 - 00:20:50:23
We self deliver the service for you, as a result

00:20:50:23 - 00:20:53:02
obviously we can demonstrate
what's collected from when

00:20:53:05 - 00:20:56:04
and obviously your robust system itself
can can track where

00:20:56:12 - 00:20:59:23
the origin of the cans
come from from a client piece.

00:21:00:10 - 00:21:01:07
So absolutely.

00:21:01:07 - 00:21:03:22
I mean, it's
all there, what can't talk can't lie.

00:21:03:22 - 00:21:06:06
We've taken to the downstream facilities
where they actually do

00:21:06:07 - 00:21:08:01
the recycling as well on occasion.

00:21:08:01 - 00:21:12:23
So it's all robustly tested from a
duty of care piece and as a result

00:21:13:11 - 00:21:17:12
what we're talking about, it's important
to talk about it and what we say we do.

00:21:17:12 - 00:21:18:17
We are actually doing in practise.

00:21:19:21 - 00:21:20:10
And just

00:21:20:10 - 00:21:23:14
the other thing the data enables,
which is nice

00:21:24:01 - 00:21:27:07
and it enables us to provide

00:21:27:19 - 00:21:30:13
an annual certificate
to our customers to say

00:21:31:00 - 00:21:36:07
this is exactly how many empty cans you've
returned to us and that have been recycled

00:21:36:10 - 00:21:38:12
and that's good for them because they can,

00:21:38:12 - 00:21:41:00
you know, potentially use that as kind of,

00:21:42:05 - 00:21:44:05
you know, good

00:21:44:08 - 00:21:47:13
case stories
for them with their with their customers.

00:21:48:04 - 00:21:51:03
Or it can be, crikey,
we need to do better.

00:21:51:05 - 00:21:53:20
And then they talk to their staff
about how to improve.

00:21:54:02 - 00:21:57:01
It acts a a trigger to change that behaviour
and obviously then drive, drive

00:21:57:01 - 00:21:57:17
better practise.

00:21:57:17 - 00:22:00:07
So yeah, well that brings us
to the end of our discussion today.

00:22:00:07 - 00:22:02:02
So thank you, Duncan.

00:22:02:02 - 00:22:03:12
If anyone wants to learn anything

00:22:03:12 - 00:22:06:23
more about the scheme
that we've run together in partnership

00:22:07:13 - 00:22:11:15
you can visit the Dulux Decorator Centre
website or Veolia's own UK website.

00:22:12:13 - 00:22:13:15
Thank you for your time today Duncan.

00:22:13:15 - 00:22:15:04
It's been it's been great chatting.

00:22:15:04 - 00:22:16:06
Thank you Dan. Yeah.

00:22:16:06 - 00:22:19:11
Thanks for inviting me Veolia.

00:22:19:11 - 00:22:21:13
Our relationship is really important
to us.

00:22:21:22 - 00:22:23:11
onwards and upwards. Absolutely.