In conversation with Costa Coffee

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:00:22
Costa is a brand

00:00:00:22 - 00:00:04:20
familiar to most of us, from its 2,000 plus coffee shops in the UK alone.

00:00:05:03 - 00:00:08:19
But beyond serving coffee, Costa has some ambitious sustainability targets.

00:00:09:07 - 00:00:11:22
As Costa works towards a more sustainable future,

00:00:12:05 - 00:00:13:00
Veolia is proud

00:00:13:00 - 00:00:16:12
to be supporting the company to implement a range of waste projects and initiatives.

00:00:16:22 - 00:00:20:00
In line with the Veolia's own ecological transformation purpose,

00:00:20:09 - 00:00:23:10
we’re partnering with Costa to minimise waste and optimise resources.

00:00:24:00 - 00:00:26:11
Listen to my conversation with Darren to find out more about what

00:00:26:11 - 00:00:28:11
we've achieved in partnership.

00:00:30:24 - 00:00:33:07
Welcome to the Veolia podcast.

00:00:33:07 - 00:00:37:02
Here at Veolia, we provide solutions for ecological transformation,

00:00:37:14 - 00:00:41:10
by delivering innovative services across water, waste and energy.

00:00:42:03 - 00:00:44:23
We work with a range of businesses and organisations

00:00:44:23 - 00:00:48:15
from a variety of different sectors on projects that are helping to optimise

00:00:48:15 - 00:00:52:04
resources, decrease pollution and fight climate change.

00:00:52:21 - 00:00:55:20
Hear about what these partnerships are achieving in our industry

00:00:55:20 - 00:00:58:16
leading podcast series, which features our customers,

00:00:59:00 - 00:01:02:08
industry professionals and our very own Veolia experts.

00:01:02:16 - 00:01:03:06
Stay tuned.

00:01:05:10 - 00:01:05:22
Good afternoon.

00:01:05:22 - 00:01:06:18
I'm Simon Futcher.

00:01:06:18 - 00:01:08:07
And today I'm joined by Darren

00:01:08:07 - 00:01:11:07
Hughes, who leads the waste and recycling projects at Costa Coffee.

00:01:12:01 - 00:01:14:19
Um. We're going to talk about the partnership between Costa and Veolia

00:01:14:19 - 00:01:18:06
and how this is helping the UK's largest coffee shop achieve it’s sustainability goals.

00:01:18:12 - 00:01:20:13
So first off, Darren, pleasure to have you.

00:01:20:13 - 00:01:22:14
Thank you ever so much for joining us today.

00:01:23:17 - 00:01:26:16
Um. I suppose a good place to start from from our perspective,

00:01:26:16 - 00:01:29:19
Costa and Veolia, we’ve worked together in partnership, now for thirteen years.

00:01:30:11 - 00:01:31:23
In that time we've obviously worked together

00:01:31:23 - 00:01:36:00
to deliver a range of sustainable initiatives, beginning with diverting

00:01:36:00 - 00:01:39:01
waste from landfill, progressing to optimisation measures.

00:01:39:15 - 00:01:43:04
We recover and utilise most of the resource from Costa's waste streams.

00:01:43:16 - 00:01:45:06
Can you tell us little bit more about the progress

00:01:45:06 - 00:01:48:07
that Costa's made towards its environmental targets over the years?

00:01:48:21 - 00:01:49:11
Absolutely.

00:01:49:11 - 00:01:54:01
So Costa has a sustainability programme called Coffee with Commitment,

00:01:54:17 - 00:01:58:14
and it's an action plan to drive positive change in the areas that

00:01:59:07 - 00:02:02:10
we can have the greatest impact in and the ones that matter

00:02:02:10 - 00:02:05:16
most to our customers, teams, suppliers and our partners.

00:02:06:19 - 00:02:09:14
It looks at everything that goes into

00:02:09:24 - 00:02:12:02
our perfectly crafted cups of coffee.

00:02:13:09 - 00:02:15:22
So it's considering the ingredients you can see, but

00:02:15:22 - 00:02:17:24
also the ones that you can't.

00:02:17:24 - 00:02:20:23
And so we're moving towards net zero by 2040

00:02:20:23 - 00:02:24:18
target and waste management obviously plays a big part in that goal,

00:02:25:04 - 00:02:27:08
and that covers everything from the back of the house bins

00:02:27:17 - 00:02:32:07
supplied from Veolia to back hauling cups of coffee and food waste.

00:02:32:12 - 00:02:37:10
And in terms of that, I suppose that that initiative and that drive towards 2040,

00:02:38:13 - 00:02:41:02
how has that been received, I suppose from your, from your customers.

00:02:41:02 - 00:02:43:23
Is it something that, they can challenge?

00:02:43:23 - 00:02:45:00
They've asked questions around.

00:02:45:00 - 00:02:45:22
Is it something that's becoming

00:02:45:22 - 00:02:49:20
more widely debated and discussed at the cost of outlets?

00:02:50:10 - 00:02:51:00
Absolutely.

00:02:51:00 - 00:02:55:02
And it's certainly something that sits quite high up in the hierarchy.

00:02:55:23 - 00:02:58:10
So our parent company is obviously quite

00:02:58:10 - 00:03:01:19
keen on us achieving more, doing more.

00:03:02:01 - 00:03:04:20
And again, we're trying to do that with everything that we do

00:03:05:03 - 00:03:08:10
from from the top down to the bottom line.

00:03:09:12 - 00:03:11:23
Coffee shops are obviously well known for their convenience.

00:03:11:23 - 00:03:13:17
Convenience based.

00:03:13:20 - 00:03:15:22
The on the go and model that that you obviously just

00:03:15:22 - 00:03:17:22
just just highlighted.

00:03:18:24 - 00:03:21:19
It's been widely criticised at times I think it's fair to say

00:03:21:19 - 00:03:25:08
on the impact to the environment not least because the amount of single use cups

00:03:25:09 - 00:03:28:01
that obviously are out there, that are bought and then obviously disposed of.

00:03:29:06 - 00:03:32:14
How are you bringing customers on board with your sustainability ambitions?

00:03:33:12 - 00:03:36:16
So we are looking to have standalone cup recycling

00:03:36:16 - 00:03:40:19
bins in every Costa equity store by the end of this year.

00:03:41:19 - 00:03:44:09
And also we're looking to promote it to our franchise partners

00:03:44:09 - 00:03:45:22
so that they can join in

00:03:45:22 - 00:03:50:01
and so that customers can recycle any paper cup, not just Costa Cups.

00:03:50:11 - 00:03:53:20
So whether that's from Burger King, McDonald's or any other chain,

00:03:54:03 - 00:03:56:07
bring it into our store. We can recycle it.

00:03:56:07 - 00:04:01:19
Um, I would say our ultimate goal is to get customers using reusables.

00:04:03:16 - 00:04:06:09
But behind the scenes, we always looking for opportunities

00:04:06:09 - 00:04:09:13
to innovate across

00:04:10:02 - 00:04:12:20
the single cups market, as you call it.

00:04:12:20 - 00:04:15:23
So that's everything from plant based plastics that we now

00:04:15:24 - 00:04:17:19
have in our cups.

00:04:19:10 - 00:04:22:15
Cup recycling obviously has a big

00:04:22:15 - 00:04:26:17
role to play in it, and we work with the NCRS the National Cup Recycling Scheme

00:04:27:06 - 00:04:30:06
to try and promote that across the whole of the sector.

00:04:30:16 - 00:04:33:23
And we're also looking into other things like re-use

00:04:36:03 - 00:04:37:20
Okay, on the reusable side.

00:04:37:20 - 00:04:41:01
Have you seen that as a you know, as you incentivise

00:04:41:03 - 00:04:44:15
customers to reuse their own cups on a on a on a more regular basis?

00:04:44:24 - 00:04:47:19
Have you seen that in the I suppose in the numbers in that respect

00:04:47:19 - 00:04:49:24
thats a, that sort of an increase in market?

00:04:49:24 - 00:04:52:06
Or is it is it relatively flat lined?

00:04:52:06 - 00:04:54:19
No, I think there's still an increase

00:04:54:19 - 00:04:57:03
that we've seen a gradual increase.

00:04:57:20 - 00:04:59:08
Also, we have certain

00:05:00:08 - 00:05:00:24
offers that

00:05:00:24 - 00:05:04:12
we give to people, so we have our green bean incentive.

00:05:04:20 - 00:05:08:24
So currently if you're go into Costa, you buy a drink in a reusable cup,

00:05:08:24 - 00:05:11:24
you get a bean, when you get ten beans, you get a free coffee

00:05:12:11 - 00:05:15:09
if you use a reusable cup, you get two beans every time.

00:05:15:18 - 00:05:19:13
So you only need five to get your coffee. Right fantastic

00:05:19:15 - 00:05:22:23
I suppose the disposable outlets that you've got in the in the stores.

00:05:24:12 - 00:05:27:00
Just give us an overview inside in terms of what they will offer

00:05:27:00 - 00:05:31:02
Is it a liquid, a lid and a cup based set up?

00:05:31:13 - 00:05:32:14
Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

00:05:32:14 - 00:05:37:21
So effectively, a unit will either sit in store or outside depending on the type of store,

00:05:38:09 - 00:05:39:18
two or three tubes,

00:05:39:18 - 00:05:42:17
as you say, cups in one, lids in another and liquids in the other.

00:05:43:05 - 00:05:47:13
So in theory, you can just empty if you've got some left or if not,

00:05:47:13 - 00:05:52:00
just drop them in the relevant bits and we'll take them back and recycle them.

00:05:52:13 - 00:05:56:13
And it was only recently I found out that you got actually two beans for your own

00:05:56:13 - 00:06:00:15
reusable cups, so its certainly changed my definition of loving a freebie.

00:06:00:23 - 00:06:04:08
And it's driven me to make sure that I take my own reusable with each time.

00:06:04:08 - 00:06:06:05
So I've learned that lesson as well.

00:06:06:05 - 00:06:09:11
Some of the initiatives, obviously you've talked about the how do they fit,

00:06:09:11 - 00:06:12:10
I suppose, into Costa's wider sustainability strategy.

00:06:12:21 - 00:06:16:01
So our strategy is science-based

00:06:16:04 - 00:06:19:19
with carbon reduction targets that we're looking to achieve.

00:06:20:05 - 00:06:23:07
And waste recycling does play quite a major part in this.

00:06:24:04 - 00:06:27:03
Obviously, we're doing this by proving the in-store

00:06:27:03 - 00:06:31:12
recycling, through the back-of-house bins that Veolia supply us.

00:06:31:12 - 00:06:36:12
But also we have our backhaul service where we take cups, coffee grounds, food

00:06:36:12 - 00:06:41:03
waste, backhaul them to different companies that will either recycle them

00:06:41:03 - 00:06:45:09
or turn them into energy using anaerobic digestion.   Fantastic

00:06:46:16 - 00:06:48:24
And one of the things I read was around you.

00:06:48:24 - 00:06:51:08
Costa is aiming to halve the emissions per coffee serving

00:06:51:08 - 00:06:54:01
by 2030.

00:06:54:01 - 00:06:56:04
Can you just give us an overview on the partnership

00:06:56:04 - 00:06:58:09
between Costa and Veolia is going to support this?

00:06:58:09 - 00:07:01:05
And can you tell us a little bit more about those sort of upcoming

00:07:01:07 - 00:07:03:16
collaborative projects that we're working on? Absolutely.

00:07:03:16 - 00:07:07:02
So one of the biggest ones for us is currently we have a milk

00:07:07:02 - 00:07:10:04
delivered in pouches which are very much unrecyclable.

00:07:11:00 - 00:07:13:07
As of next year, we will be moving to

00:07:13:17 - 00:07:18:14
milk bottles, plastic milk bottles, and we will be looking to backhaul them

00:07:18:14 - 00:07:20:18
in the same way as the cups and the coffee grounds,

00:07:21:01 - 00:07:23:10
and they will then go to the Veolia Dagenham site

00:07:23:14 - 00:07:26:19
where they will be reprocessed and turned into new milk bottles,

00:07:27:22 - 00:07:28:05
Um, we’re

00:07:28:05 - 00:07:29:14
also looking at how we

00:07:29:14 - 00:07:33:19
can change some of the other packaging we use so moving away from plastics

00:07:33:19 - 00:07:37:01
to other, easier to recycle materials that we can recycle

00:07:37:01 - 00:07:38:10
in-house.

00:07:40:22 - 00:07:42:07
We’re also, as I said earlier,

00:07:42:07 - 00:07:45:02
working with the National Cup Recycling Scheme to try and increase the number of cup

00:07:45:10 - 00:07:49:08
reycling points there are around the country both through ours

00:07:49:08 - 00:07:52:23
and with our partners again, McDonald's and Burger King and other stores.

00:07:53:05 - 00:07:56:19
So in theory, it will be possible for people to take Costa Cup,

00:07:56:22 - 00:08:00:21
into a McDonald’s, a McDonald’s cup into a Burger King, so on and so forth.

00:08:00:21 - 00:08:04:06
So actually it really improves that whole infrastructure

00:08:04:11 - 00:08:06:12
because at the moment that does seem to be a big barrier.

00:08:07:07 - 00:08:10:02
The other thing we’re looking at is small technological advances.

00:08:10:02 - 00:08:15:18
So a process with Holy Grail where effectively the outside of the Cup has a UAV

00:08:17:11 - 00:08:18:03
picture on it

00:08:18:03 - 00:08:21:24
almost, so it can go through a recycling facility

00:08:22:09 - 00:08:25:12
that will scan it and take it off and then take it for recycling.

00:08:25:24 - 00:08:29:22
But that technology is a bit off yet.  Yes, sure.

00:08:30:09 - 00:08:32:01
I mean, the

00:08:32:06 - 00:08:34:22
project around moving to plastic bottles, backhauling,

00:08:35:00 - 00:08:37:10
running that through the processing businesses, is obviously

00:08:37:14 - 00:08:41:08
a fantastic initiative. You touched then as well around the, a little bit on another aspect

00:08:41:08 - 00:08:44:00
of packaging that obviously Costa are managing.

00:08:45:04 - 00:08:47:21
How do you find those conversations are I suppose,

00:08:47:24 - 00:08:50:13
developing and landing within your supply chain though,

00:08:50:13 - 00:08:53:19
in other areas when you start to challenge the types of material

00:08:53:22 - 00:08:56:22
that are arriving within the stores.

00:08:57:09 - 00:09:01:11
Yeah normally it's probably a little bit of why do we have to do that.

00:09:02:03 - 00:09:04:21
But again, with in theory,

00:09:04:21 - 00:09:07:21
EPR landing sometime in the next two years,

00:09:09:10 - 00:09:09:19
there is

00:09:09:19 - 00:09:12:09
obviously quite a significant cost impact. Sure

00:09:13:04 - 00:09:16:20
But also it is that environmental impact and the more we can recycle

00:09:17:04 - 00:09:22:05
the lower our carbon footprint and also the more we can do to

00:09:22:09 - 00:09:25:14
to make things better because at the end of the day,

00:09:27:12 - 00:09:30:18
the more we recycle, the less we waste, the better it is for all us.

00:09:30:24 - 00:09:31:18
Of course,

00:09:32:19 - 00:09:35:13
You touched on then obviously what it feels like at the store level as well.

00:09:36:04 - 00:09:37:08
How does that programme work?

00:09:37:08 - 00:09:39:14
I suppose in terms of

00:09:39:24 - 00:09:41:15
staff education, staff engagement,

00:09:41:15 - 00:09:44:19
because obviously a big part of of your success was clearly going to be

00:09:45:00 - 00:09:48:13
the consistency of each of those stores operating in a similar fashion.

00:09:49:05 - 00:09:53:13
Is there is a programme around how you gain that level of consistency within

00:09:53:13 - 00:09:56:15
that store level to ensure that the staff are operating as you need them to?

00:09:57:00 - 00:10:01:13
Yes. So we have standard operating procedures, that cover absolutely

00:10:01:13 - 00:10:06:01
everything in store from making the different coffee types, cleaning down

00:10:06:03 - 00:10:09:19
also includes waste and recycling and also coffee

00:10:10:20 - 00:10:13:09
grounds and food waste backhaul.

00:10:13:09 - 00:10:16:13
And also they'll be one for the plastic bottles when that service comes online

00:10:16:20 - 00:10:21:03
just trying to ensure that there is a set way to do it no matter what store you’re in

00:10:21:18 - 00:10:25:18
because we know that people might move if they go to university

00:10:25:18 - 00:10:29:02
or if they move with with partners and actually

00:10:29:16 - 00:10:32:04
a barista working in store near myself in

00:10:32:04 - 00:10:34:22
Wisbech, should be able to come to work in a store in London.

00:10:35:04 - 00:10:37:06
And it should operate exactly the same all the way round.

00:10:37:06 - 00:10:39:22
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

00:10:39:24 - 00:10:42:12
Innovation is obviously key. You’ve touched on it.

00:10:42:12 - 00:10:44:18
Innovation is key to building a more sustainable future.

00:10:45:21 - 00:10:48:08
It’s obviously clearly evident in your in your upcoming plans.

00:10:49:17 - 00:10:53:01
How would you think the coffee shop sector as a whole needs to evolve further

00:10:53:01 - 00:10:57:03
to meet the demands of obviously a more sustainable conscious set of customers.

00:10:58:09 - 00:10:59:12
Well, as well as

00:10:59:12 - 00:11:02:00
making single-use cups as sustainable as possible.

00:11:03:09 - 00:11:06:11
Obviously, as I mentioned, we're using plant-based plastic linings.

00:11:07:10 - 00:11:09:06
We're also switching to fibre lids.

00:11:09:06 - 00:11:10:17
We're trialling that in Wales.

00:11:10:17 - 00:11:13:05
So again, that gets rid of a big chunk of plastic.

00:11:14:01 - 00:11:16:05
Also trying to promote reuse,

00:11:16:09 - 00:11:20:07
as I said to our customers through our loyalty scheme, Costa Club App.

00:11:20:16 - 00:11:25:04
So they get twice as many beans and a lot quicker free coffee.

00:11:26:01 - 00:11:29:10
We're also obviously promoting reusable cups in store.

00:11:30:02 - 00:11:32:13
We trialled some borrow a cup schemes

00:11:34:01 - 00:11:36:07
as well to see how they work.

00:11:36:07 - 00:11:40:01
I think it's a case of watch this space and watch the app for for more trials

00:11:40:01 - 00:11:42:00
come to the market soon, hopefully. Yeah.

00:11:42:00 - 00:11:45:18
Absolutely. One of the things you said before was obviously related to things like EPR

00:11:45:18 - 00:11:50:01
and legislation and as we know, it's a it's a forever moving landscape.

00:11:50:01 - 00:11:53:03
When we talk about legislation and the government's waste and resource strategy,

00:11:55:05 - 00:11:58:12
I suppose looking at that as a as a

00:11:58:12 - 00:12:00:09
as an opportunity and I suppose as a risk,

00:12:00:09 - 00:12:04:09
where do you see or how do you see legislation

00:12:04:09 - 00:12:09:06
playing a part now to to to bring an opportunity for the sector,

00:12:10:09 - 00:12:12:11
but also I suppose two parts of that question.

00:12:12:12 - 00:12:14:24
Where also do you see the risk thats associated.

00:12:16:17 - 00:12:21:08
I think the opportunities are that obviously it's the sector as a whole

00:12:21:08 - 00:12:25:18
and takeaway providers, not not just coffee shops,

00:12:26:10 - 00:12:29:17
gives us a bit of a chance to focus on that

00:12:29:17 - 00:12:31:24
whole reusable or

00:12:33:00 - 00:12:36:04
alternative cups or getting them back in

00:12:37:03 - 00:12:41:13
in order to actually really do what customers want us to do,

00:12:41:13 - 00:12:43:20
which is actually do something with the cups

00:12:43:20 - 00:12:44:17
when they finish with them.

00:12:45:19 - 00:12:46:11
What do you think?

00:12:46:11 - 00:12:49:11
I think there's one if there was one, I suppose, element that

00:12:50:15 - 00:12:53:17
you would like to see

00:12:53:17 - 00:12:55:08
change within

00:12:55:08 - 00:12:57:03
I suppose the coffee shop sector,

00:12:57:03 - 00:12:58:17
as it were, over the next couple of years,

00:12:58:17 - 00:13:01:24
as you start moving towards some of these, these changes as one thing

00:13:01:24 - 00:13:05:07
that you'd like to see slightly differently, what would it be?

00:13:06:21 - 00:13:09:12
I mean I'm, I firmly commit

00:13:09:12 - 00:13:11:22
to try and get us away from single-use cups.

00:13:13:03 - 00:13:14:23
But again, in a previous life

00:13:14:23 - 00:13:17:00
as a local authority waste officer,

00:13:18:01 - 00:13:21:15
going to see the local MRF there would always be the odd coffee cup

00:13:21:18 - 00:13:24:02
go shooting past into the paper fraction.

00:13:25:10 - 00:13:27:11
And again knowing as I do from the industry

00:13:27:11 - 00:13:31:20
that that's probably going to end up off to one side and maybe go to energy

00:13:31:20 - 00:13:34:14
from waste. It would be really good to find a way to actually either

00:13:36:02 - 00:13:38:02
get people to stop using them

00:13:38:02 - 00:13:41:16
or actually find a better way to get them collected so that actually

00:13:41:16 - 00:13:44:16
we can get in all of those cups and really do something with them.

00:13:44:22 - 00:13:47:04
Yeah, fantastic.

00:13:47:08 - 00:13:49:22
Obviously we’ve talked significantly about the cup.

00:13:49:22 - 00:13:51:24
I think it would be remiss not to probably mention

00:13:52:01 - 00:13:54:15
coffee grounds and you know, I know there's a lot of innovation

00:13:55:11 - 00:13:58:08
and conversation around coffee grounds and the options available to us

00:13:58:08 - 00:14:02:10
in terms of how we sustainably manage and innovate

00:14:02:10 - 00:14:04:15
when it comes to coffee grounds

00:14:04:15 - 00:14:07:17
Do you just give us a bit of an overview, I suppose, on where coffee grounds

00:14:07:17 - 00:14:09:07
sits at this moment in time from Costa's

00:14:09:07 - 00:14:12:18
perspective in terms of innovation and where you move in from sustainability.

00:14:12:18 - 00:14:17:00
Absolutely so we backhaul our coffee grounds,

00:14:17:00 - 00:14:19:18
although customers are able to come and get them from the store,

00:14:19:20 - 00:14:22:14
if they want them. They can put them on a garden apparently they’re very good,

00:14:22:17 - 00:14:27:02
for helping to grow everything.  But the backhaul material

00:14:27:09 - 00:14:32:24
goes on to another company that will then use them for a variety of different things.

00:14:32:24 - 00:14:35:08
So everything from bioplastics,

00:14:35:23 - 00:14:39:17
we're looking at a process called Bio Char, which is a carbon

00:14:39:17 - 00:14:44:06
negative process that helps actually take in more carbon than it uses.

00:14:44:17 - 00:14:47:13
And those materials can then go on to fields

00:14:47:13 - 00:14:52:12
and farmers and all the other bits and pieces to help grow the grass

00:14:52:12 - 00:14:57:03
and stuff that possibly the cows are feeding on to produce the milk that goes into our coffees.

00:14:57:18 - 00:15:01:10
Fantastic and also doesn't smell bad either.

00:15:01:10 - 00:15:04:14
Absolutely that there are definitely worse things you can smell in the countryside.

00:15:05:10 - 00:15:07:05
Absolutely right. Major positive. Brilliant, brilliant.

00:15:08:11 - 00:15:10:11
Darren, thank you ever so much for your time today.

00:15:10:11 - 00:15:13:09
It's been really great getting some insight from from your perspective

00:15:13:10 - 00:15:15:21
and from Costa’s perspective in terms of

00:15:15:21 - 00:15:18:24
where you see innovation, where you see obviously response to legislation.

00:15:18:24 - 00:15:22:01
Great to see some of the initiatives that obviously we're supporting you on

00:15:22:01 - 00:15:25:20
as we help develop towards working alongside you in partnership

00:15:25:20 - 00:15:27:11
to your sustainability strategy.

00:15:27:11 - 00:15:30:00
The wider sustainability strategy.

00:15:30:00 - 00:15:33:01
Hopefully people will also remember from from today's podcast that

00:15:33:18 - 00:15:36:10
if you take your own cup, it's two beans, it's not one on your card,

00:15:36:10 - 00:15:37:20
which is obviously majorly important.

00:15:37:20 - 00:15:40:13
So to those who love to make sure they get freebie.

00:15:40:14 - 00:15:42:11
So thanks again for your time today.

00:15:42:11 - 00:15:44:21
It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks very much for having me.