Are businesses doing enough to decarbonise?

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Speaker 1
Climate change is real and is happening as we speak. These changes can impose serious threats to human health and is causing more frequent and intense extreme weather events across the world. Global temperatures have risen by about one degree C and this figure is set to increase even more at Veolia. Our ambition is to achieve ecological transformation. If you want to learn more about how your business can play its part, join our panel of experts in our LinkedIn live series.

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Speaker 1
Ask the expert. Follow us and look out for the notification when we have gone live to discover our innovative solutions and how we can all turn the tide on climate change.

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Speaker 2
Hello and welcome. This is the second D carbon ization focused. Ask the expert. Last week you may remember we were talking to Heather Foster. If you didn't have a chance to hear an excellent expert speaking on the SDGs scheme, please go back and find that in the LinkedIn feed or find it on our podcast page. More details on that to come today.

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Speaker 2
We're going to continue the story and I'm going to talk to a colleague of mine who is also a friend and somebody who always makes me smile. David Bevan David is our head of Industrial Water and Energy Professional Services here at Veolia UK. David, I've given you your title, but why do you introduce yourself?

00:01:37:16 - 00:02:06:08
Speaker 3
Hi, Yeah, thanks Martyn. As you say I'm Dave Bevan. And so as Head of Professional Services, that's kind of a bit vague, isn't it? So what, what's the actually mean? So my team, the team looks at both energy optimization and water optimization. So that's looking at different opportunities to try and decarbonize and leading. And how can businesses run through what their net zero path should they and actually making those those real.

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Speaker 3
That's kind of me in a nutshell.

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Speaker 2
Excellent. So really excellent. Thank you. Yeah. So, David, in a nutshell, but it's all decarbonization. It's all very Alamo. It's it's a hot topic. Are you seeing businesses showing more interest improving their carbon performance? Well, what's the trend been like over the last few years?

00:02:32:22 - 00:02:53:16
Speaker 3
Well, it it is starting to grow more and more. There's still a bit of a mixed bag. The thing that kind of surprised me, though, this year, it is it's easier, which is the energy savings opportunity schemes that every four years large businesses have to report to report to the Environment Agency about what their their carbon output is.

00:02:53:16 - 00:03:14:20
Speaker 3
And then the opportunities to reduce that. And Wall Street surprise me. There's there's been quite a few that say, well, actually I just want to do compliance, I just want to tick box and that's it. But there is also a different stream of businesses that are starting to make those changes start to rethink about it and think about what, what, what do we need to do as a business?

00:03:14:20 - 00:03:34:06
Speaker 3
What do we need to do to reach net zero or actually try and decarbonize or actually try and hit their own targets? We're also seeing that there are a few businesses, quite few businesses that are target at that probably back in the 20 tens made towards the 2020 that say, oh I can put a target in bit into about 2030 that will go reach net zero.

00:03:34:12 - 00:03:47:00
Speaker 3
And without thinking that it's been such a such a long way off and now the signs get ready and thinking well actually 2030 is only about seven seven, eight years away. So we really have to start doing something right.

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Speaker 2
So it's kind of a real.

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Speaker 3
Real mix out there. But there is thought to be of more momentum for businesses to want to change. And even down the supply chain, when you're looking at tenders, when you're looking to bring suppliers in, partner that the requisite barriers to actually try and try and get as green a company as possible that there are checkboxes in tenders especially can be said a tendency attenders that say that you want to have a green supply chain.

00:04:14:07 - 00:04:37:19
Speaker 3
So it's really starts comes before that. And I think the problem is out there that the business is it's crazy confusing really. And everywhere else that there's there's an integrated somewhere. There's no real integrator in in decarbonization. So businesses will have to work hard to try and work out what the where, the why, the how and the what really looks like.

00:04:38:13 - 00:04:51:09
Speaker 3
And that's that's kind of where where we're kind of trying to sit in this future, trying to take hold of that problem for them and try and say, yeah, we can frame the problem and actually then we can try to create what the solutions are as well. So I say it's a bit of a mixed bag out there.

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Speaker 2
It is, but you're the expert and you used an expert word. You said integrator. It was an example of an integrator in another industry that if there is no integrator in this one.

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Speaker 3
And I suppose one of the one one that you see an example of different, different business that we had, when you go go and buy a car, you don't go into separate showrooms and say, actually, I want an engine from you, tires from you, a Speedo from you and clutch place from you. And you actually go into I want the whole package that gives you a deliverable outcome.

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Speaker 3
You either want efficiency, speed, drivability, etc. so you know what you're after in the decarbonization space there isn't that as a business or even as a personal person, inspire you less on your own to say, Oh, do I, do I need a solar panel or do I need a heat pump, or do I even need to insulate? See, see you scrabbling around trying to work out where and it integrates.

00:05:48:03 - 00:05:59:04
Speaker 3
When I put that all together and say this is looking at get your your estate or your building as a whole, this is this is what you need is this is the pathway to actually achieve what you want to do.

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Speaker 2
And so if what you're saying your role is, you're the integrator sounds like yes, yes.

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Speaker 3
Yeah. Them come in and say that so that the stuff that's on it excites the team and makes it. I always like to be that downside point to at the beginning where you were with with the business actually they know that there's a problem there and they know how to do something, but they don't know where even to start.

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Speaker 3
So the team can start to look at that and say, actually this is what working with and what should desires, where you want to get to, what do you even use your energy for and how do you want to use in the future? And then take you from that starting point all the way through to the end and actually give them the strategy and the pathway and say this, this is how it works, this is what we can do.

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Speaker 2
Things really. Pulse I may ask you to repeat some of the things, but there's is a big difference that in the marketplace there are people who are offering quick fixes. Now the short of it and then there's the alternative that the longer solution, the Veolia solution, I guess can you talk to that for a little bit? I know, you know, I think it's really important to get in our minds.

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Speaker 3
Yeah, definitely so. So a space that there's a few obvious things because there's this big you hear on the radio, on or on TV, and it's now starting to be advertisements for things like heat pumps of things like solar panels. And you have firms out there that will that will try and sell you a solar panel, whether you want one or not, whether you need one box or heat pump, whether it whether or not the building suitable for it.

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Speaker 3
I mean, if you're in a big, big, drafty Victorian building and you've got. Yeah, you've probably got a very high carbon and very high usage fossil fuel heating, it's not going to work if someone comes in and just throws heat from them because you're going to they have high electric bills and be cold and that's, that's not going to work for anyone, is it?

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Speaker 3
So so the difference is when we take it back to the very start and say, I'm looking for a fabric first position and say this is this is the kind of building that you have, where do you want to be, where you want to get to? And then we try and try and work with them. Say this is the type of solution that that you have.

00:08:06:09 - 00:08:26:21
Speaker 3
So trying to integrate in things. So I mentioned heat pumps and solar panels. So that might be part of the solution, but we may combine them. So yes, the electricity might go up, but there is some generation asset that you have on your roofs actually trying to set up. And also we'd look at fabric as well to say you are actually what's better?

00:08:26:21 - 00:08:46:01
Speaker 3
Do you need three heat pumps or do you need one heat pump and a lot of rack, which is going to be the most cost effective way of doing it. So it's actually trying to take it. It's getting the best bang for your buck, really trying to say this is this is that this is your capital outlay and this is the target you won't achieve how we married the two together to make it to make it work for you.

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Speaker 2
I suppose you'd need to be quite agnostic then you need to be impartial because you're not actually trying to sell. You're trying to sell a product. You're trying to sell a solution.

00:08:57:16 - 00:09:23:01
Speaker 3
Absolutely. Yeah. We're completely technology agnostic. It's a it's the we I, I don't care whether it's going to be a a heat pump associate program. So say some geothermal wind turbine solar panels, solar thermal, It's what's at his best for the building. We're not there. We don't we don't own a panel manufacturing plants we don't own we don't own Mitsubishi produce heat.

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Speaker 3
We try and we try and move everything together and say this is the best package for the building.

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Speaker 2
I think I fully understand the integration piece now, although I am now tempted to call you the integrate all every.

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Speaker 3
I need to hear that. Yeah, behind me in an office somewhere, I know where to go.

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Speaker 2
It'll be a so I've got my head around it now. So, you know, is there an example we can give of where we've successfully delivered a decarbonization project.

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Speaker 3
Yeah. So probably one of the most recent ones and probably one with a few few different elements in that was a was where we did for Leicestershire County Council. So over the three of their estates so their main county hall and in it just outside Leicester they had a, an old old biomass boiler that only said parts of the building and they had lots of gas boilers and, and they wanted to obviously reduce that.

00:10:23:22 - 00:10:51:19
Speaker 3
So what we did was, was to remove the gas boilers and extend the biomass boiler and then extend into our heat network. So the heat network continued throughout the estate, delivering heat, low carbon heat to all these buildings that Gosport is used to fire. And we also integrated large heat store, which sounds really fancy. What is is a massive tank of water, huge silo of water.

00:10:51:19 - 00:11:11:17
Speaker 3
And so you heat it up. And obviously water is great for keeping heat and so you heat up when your when you're not taking it. And then you can start to preheat the building with it so you can pre heat and some of the buildings in the morning without AC take the heat at last and then then we use an excess you start to hit the water again.

00:11:11:17 - 00:11:38:21
Speaker 3
So it's kind of a buffer system. So that was really, really useful for them. And also we used them as solar panels because they did. The location is on the edge of Leicester, it's in there, it's a large electricity use itself, but there's no shading in that. It has lots of. Matt Reeves There's no shading, so it's ideal to be able to use it for round solar panel solar PV because that just that they are as an office, they are using electricity during the day.

00:11:39:02 - 00:11:54:13
Speaker 3
So is there's no better marriage that and saying yes a lot of interesting you've got a degree it's quite a sunny place that's the TV on the top as well So it's all these things working together that overall save them both carbon and and the operating costs are actually.

00:11:55:05 - 00:12:20:01
Speaker 2
Excellent so that agnosticism is really important to finding. And that's a great example. I was really impressed by the number of solutions brought together to make a whole and and clearly, you know, it isn't that once this was all switched on, they couldn't run the lights or turn the microwave on without turning off half of the building. It's finding that alternative way to achieve the sum that you replacing.

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Speaker 2
I guess in terms of the electricity, the.

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Speaker 3
Yeah, definitely have to make sure that you can't you have to leave leave your clients in a much better position than when you found them. So everything has to run smoothly, at least as smoothly as it did before. However, it has to run in a much, much more efficient, much lower carbon and a way is possible. And so it is ensuring that that because this particular building has lots of different uses and lots of different tenants inside them, so none of them are sort of dissatisfied with within these days, you make sure that it is warm as it used today and it's there.

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Speaker 3
There's no electricity shortage as everything actually works together.

00:13:03:21 - 00:13:27:06
Speaker 2
So it's practical and it's efficient. Yes, it's not decarbonization, it's being optimizing the situation and you decarbonize at the same time. It it's that's great. That's really interesting. I know that it says Veolia on my paycheck, but I am allowed to ask a question like this. Come on. Then we walk in the walk. It's all very well and good.

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Speaker 2
Or are we just making money?

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Speaker 3
And we are. Daphne was to walk the walk. So. So as you know, Professor says that the people that are watching this thing of the early is a stage is is a very mixed bag so we have everything from small and I was going to say offices but that the small ones are more like sheds. So we have a thing for small sheds all the way up to huge industrial estates so and everything to an office buildings as well.

00:13:59:01 - 00:14:20:07
Speaker 3
So, so we started it and started a program of looking at our big emitters first. So those are the, the, the last treatment works where we go in, have a look at what they're using, how can they be more efficient, what can we give it given that an options report to them and status in them as well. So they're saying this is these are the best options for you.

00:14:21:08 - 00:14:41:09
Speaker 3
Excuse me, these are the best options for you and this is what could be implemented. And then we take that throughout the estate. So we go rolling throughout this year and probably next year to look at all our all our different buildings. I mean, and conversely as well. So so in the offices where we start to look at our head office in London.

00:14:41:10 - 00:15:07:22
Speaker 3
And so in the last few weeks we've done a big lighting survey that's trying to make it more efficient. We're looking at the that the heating and cooling systems that when they got more efficient and that's something we're going to try to roll out in more of the offices as well, especially the offices we want we comply with and say this is this is almost this is what we can then show and say this is what's achievable and this is what this is what can be like the pinnacle, the upper elements of what could be done.

00:15:08:04 - 00:15:14:07
Speaker 3
And then we can we can try and really show that these are the sort of things that we can work together. And I'm actually actually do things for everyone else.

00:15:15:09 - 00:15:36:12
Speaker 2
As that's really interesting. And it's it's good that we're walking the walk and taking our own medicine. But what really interested me though, is you talked about starting from the old it, you know, seeing where the energy is being used and pinpoint and planning and diagnose, diagnosing before you deliver the strategy and before you even start the tactics, you know, the tactics being solar panels.

00:15:36:15 - 00:15:51:24
Speaker 2
I guess that's something we can quickly do is just give me a solar panel. Yeah, me into the sun, put me into a wind turbine. I know, in a way, but it might not be the right thing. You have to. And now I think I understand what you're saying about Leicester, The example you gave there more. You have to start with.

00:15:52:16 - 00:15:54:06
Speaker 2
Where's the power being used?

00:15:54:22 - 00:16:24:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. He said It's a, it's a data business at the start. So as much data as we can get, we pull that data. So they're looking at what electricity they use, what they use, what gas they use, and importantly as well as the profiles, why they use it. So where's it going to? And if that involves putting in more metering and metering in place and actually see see where it goes, that that's all part of the process because to be able to give an offer, a complete solution, you need to know exactly why.

00:16:24:03 - 00:16:42:22
Speaker 3
Why somebody saying that, because they may they may be using huge amounts of gas, but they're not using huge amount of gas for a reason. They might be. Am I right? Take a really extreme version. Need not be used for blast furnace. You can't you can't just switch off gas from that. So you need to know where way where that power is being used and wet energy's being used.

00:16:42:22 - 00:17:00:11
Speaker 3
And what for? It is a real data driven business. You want to you want to take in as much as you can and actually then try and work out a structure. And that's as opposed to saying just walk in and go, yeah, this is a building. It needs a solar panel. And that's, that's, that's approaching from completely the wrong end.

00:17:00:18 - 00:17:08:05
Speaker 2
They go, yeah, net zero, I've got solar panels on area half the side of Oxford. Yeah. Yeah. So that is.

00:17:08:22 - 00:17:11:09
Speaker 3
The space that you can plan tree as well and then be done by.

00:17:13:20 - 00:17:27:12
Speaker 2
Perfect. That's great. I really understand. And thank you for giving us an insight. And what's one piece of advice you give to businesses that are looking to decarbonize, people watching, listening? What's the one piece of advice you're going to give them?

00:17:28:16 - 00:17:55:05
Speaker 3
And I think initially don't don't put it off. It is very complicated. It's it is it is something that it's not easy. It's something that's we've only in the last few years really started to think about it. And it's it's not easy to find where a starting point is. And the starting point is is getting that strategy actually working at from the point of where you are today, where you want to be tomorrow.

00:17:55:05 - 00:18:16:10
Speaker 3
And that isn't an easy concept. It is very easy to say I want to be net zero in 2035, 24 to 2050, but what does that actually mean? So I'm actually starting from that, taking the first step and saying, I know, I know there's a messy problem here. Let's try and define the problem first. Let's not jump to a solution before we can actually have the problem and before we can define the problem.

00:18:16:21 - 00:18:28:17
Speaker 3
And the people will do that for a lot of our clients actually saying let's try and work that problem with you and try and work out what it is that, what is the starting point. And then we can start to go through the journey.

00:18:29:18 - 00:18:45:19
Speaker 2
Excellent, Excellent. And one of the games we've played at it, one of the things I enjoy in a conversation with you is decarbonization, myths, Talibanization, myth, which one you want to shoot, which you want to debunk. For me.

00:18:46:05 - 00:19:10:23
Speaker 3
I think I'm going to go to a very closely related We're living in an age now. All we that there's so much on social media, the armchair experts are sitting there trying to give advice. And the two that keep coming up are decarbonization, economy and why How should we do anything in the in the UK when other countries are missing a lot more than we do?

00:19:11:05 - 00:19:50:21
Speaker 3
So that is those are kind of links. So the first one says de Corbyn has the economy. It really doesn't. The low carbon economy, Low carbon economy is creating jobs and it does creating jobs and the glide path three is there's a lot more jobs being created than there are being lost through high carbon industries. And then even even you looking at your sort of micro-level within businesses, a focus, a focus on decarbonization is a focus on energy efficiency, so that reducing your energy needs is actually freeing up resources and therefore cash to invest in other areas.

00:19:51:02 - 00:20:12:20
Speaker 3
So it's actually the de carbon economy is not it's completely false. It's actually the other way round. And not carving will start to hurt the economy because we'll be laggards and not that that leads on to the next one. So why should we focus when the UK hit low, the UK, why should we do anything here when everyone else has got more of an issue than we have?

00:20:13:05 - 00:20:38:09
Speaker 3
Well, first of all, it kind of strengthens our place in the global economy. We need to be leaders. In this week we've seen inaction, Let others take our place and we've we've let this happen before in the UK with both wind power and carbon capture and storage. We came up with the UK, we had a great innovation and so bubbling up and then we let it slip and then everyone else.

00:20:38:09 - 00:21:02:05
Speaker 3
And that money was called. Projects collapsed and nothing happened and we let everyone else sort of overtake us. We can let that happen and we need to be a global player in this. We can export expertise by doing this. And then the other element is, is let's take this hypothetical world that the the armchair experts are right, and that is there's no such thing as climate change.

00:21:02:14 - 00:21:28:02
Speaker 3
Very bizarre. But yeah, that's going to be that for a second. If we do this and the social thing is caused by climate change, we do it and what do we get? We use less energy so it's cheaper, we get cleaner air. So it's we're we're in a better place to live. We have better outcomes for health and we have children that aren't growing up with with with so a greater with less lung problems because with that breathing dirty air and with the whole economy paying a lot less for its primary energy.

00:21:28:08 - 00:21:36:01
Speaker 3
So in that in that sort of perverse world, if if climate change wasn't there, there's still a whole host of benefits of why we should do something.

00:21:36:24 - 00:21:39:18
Speaker 2
I feel sorry for the myths. They are well and truly busted.

00:21:41:00 - 00:21:43:14
Speaker 3
There's a few more, but I think we could we could go to our.

00:21:44:08 - 00:22:12:24
Speaker 2
Maybe maybe you can join us for another ask. Ask the expert in a few months time. But for now, David, thank you. Hopefully that's given everyone watching some real food for thought. If anyone would like to get in touch and find out more about decarbonization, please click on the link in the comments on next week's episode of Ask the Expert will be taking place on Thursday, the 6th of July, where we're going to be talking about bio conversion.

00:22:13:14 - 00:22:32:10
Speaker 2
So if you're interested in how insects could be the next big thing, make sure you tune in. Don't forget, you can listen back to all our previous episodes of 'Ask the Expert' at veolia.co.uk/podcast-hub. Thanks for your time, David. Thank you for listening.

00:22:33:05 - 00:22:33:17
Speaker 3
Thanks. Bye.